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The Problem of Pain

By Joey - Posted on July 18th, 2007
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JDM's News Feed: "What Jesus Didn't Say to Smyrna."

This is an interesting topic.  The author and respondents almost hit on a core Catholic teaching.  That this life is all about suffering.  

Proposition:  no one will enter Heaven with out first passing through suffering and pain.

Why should this proposition be true?  Or, why should it be false?

js

 

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experience
By Jonathan - Posted on July 19th, 2007
From our experience tells us that everyone suffers pain to some extent.
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Suffering
By Joey - Posted on July 19th, 2007

Yes, but can suffering be salvific?  js

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salvific?
By Jonathan - Posted on July 19th, 2007
What does salvific mean?
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Salvific
By Joey - Posted on July 23rd, 2007

Having the intention or power to bring about salvation or redemption.

Late Latin salvificus : Latin salvus, safe; see safe + Latin -ficus, -fic.

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salvific
By Jonathan - Posted on July 24th, 2007
I believe that the blood of Jesus has the power to bring about salvation or redemption.  Does suffering make one more open to accepting that sacrifice or remaining in that relationship?  Yes in some cases.  In others, no.  Here are some scriptures.  Basically they seem to be instructing to be patient and endure the sufferings you experience because you know something better is coming.
 
Romans 5:2-4 
2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[a] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[b] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 
 
Romans 8:16-18 
16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs-heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 
 
2 Cor. 1:3-6
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort. 
 
1 Peter 2:18-20
18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 
 
1 Peter 4:12-20
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a] 19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
 
 
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Salvific Suffering
By Joey - Posted on July 24th, 2007

Very nice summary. 

I would like to propose that while the scriptures cited expound upon the reality of suffering, they do not address the salvific value of suffering - at least directly.

I was thinking more about these difficult saying of Jesus:

Mark 8:34-35 (NIV)

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."

Luke 9:23-24 (NIV)

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)

... anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

My conclusion from reading these sayings is that if I do not actively take up my cross and bear it then I will not gain my salvation.  Note, when I say "gain my salvation" I mean to say to "benefit from the salvific force of the blood of Christ".  Notably, these scriptures strongly imply that a "worthiness" can be gained by the actions of an individual and his free will - especially in the action of self-denial.

I believe for many, what it means to be "saved" is either over simplified a) "accept Jesus into your heart" or b) ill defined by a lack of interest in the "do" statements that we are discussing in another thread.

Interested in your thoughts,  js

 

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